Invest in yourself to create a better photography business (and not burnout)

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Welcome to another episode of PhotoProfit where we talk about the business of photography. Today, my special guest is Benjamin Von Wong. He’s a well known photographer. He does all sorts of crazy things; high profile things where he gets a lot of media attention. Today, we’re going to look at how to invest in yourself to create a better photography business that works!

Enjoy! Brent

In this episode
(1:06) The importance of investing in yourself
(2:10) How Benjamin started photography as a side project
(3:40) Time of introspection
(9:00) The route of creativity changing Benjamin’s life
(11:00) It’s always important to question your direction as creative
(12:50) Constantly challenge yourself
(15:40) What are the things that they should do now to get those creativity juices flowing and get interested again in photography?
(17:54) How do you get people to help you for free?
(21:37) How long has it taken Benjamin to get to where he is now
(24:27) Giving back

Show Notes:
Brent Mail
Photo Profit – How to invest in yourself to create a better photography business
Benjamin Von Wong – Site Here>>>
show notes –
Investing in ourselves
Constantly evolving and branching out

  • Do not get stuck in something
  • Always pursue perfection of your craft
  • How do you touch the rest of the world with your craft? The ones outside your circle?

Accept failure but keep moving

  • – It is vital to know the direction you are in
  • If it’s not what you want, don’t be afraid to turn around and go the other direction

Knowing what you want in life:

  • Do things you already know and step it up higher
  • Step out of the comfort zone
  • Try different things
  • Make multiple project plans

Knowing what to say when asking people to help for free

  • Present it as something they can benefit from
  • Don’t be self centered in presenting the project

Using what you know and what you have to change the world

  • Seeing what the world needs
  • Changing the world in any capacity we can



Brent: Hey guys, Brent here and welcome back to another episode of photo profit where we talk about the business of photography. Today my special guest is Benjamin Von Wong. He’s a well known photographer. He does all sorts of crazy things. High profile things and he gets a lot of media attention. Today, we’re gonna look at how to invest in yourself to create a better photography business and not burn out. I really enjoyed speaking to Ben and we’ll show you guys if you aren’t creative and you feel a little bit burn out or you’ve lost your creative spirit or your creative juice isn’t flying like it should be, I think you’re gonna love this podcast. Just remember all this show notes are in Photo Let’s jump right into it.

Why Do We Need To Invest In Ourselves?

Brent: Ben, how are you doing today?

Benjamin: I’m doing great in a calm day of editing.

Brent: Awesome, today we’re gonna talk about investing in yourself as a creative person. So, why is it important for us, creative photographers to invest in ourselves?

Benjamin: I think it’s really important to invest in yourself, a brand or person because as a creative, I believe that we want to be hired not because the client need a technical guide to replicate something they’ve seen somewhere else. You want them to hire you for your vision or something you’re uniquely good at or something that you excel in and that ideally nobody else in the world can do. And so, the only way to reach that point where someone will invest in your unique ability to do whatever it happens to be is if unique in the first place. If you don’t spend enough time investing in yourself and discovering what makes you unique and how is that represented in what you do then you end up in this really odd position of not quiet knowing what niche are you in and how to market yourself and how to put yourself out there and not knowing why people won’t hire you or what do you talk about? What do you show? Which aspects do you focus on? And all these weird questions that almost sums up to somewhat of an identity crisis in the creative world. So, investing in yourself, I think is a really good way and the good thing about invest in yourself without a client breathing down your neck or without the pressure of someone else telling you what to do is that you can make mistakes a lot easier and you can recover from them a lot faster with a lot less consequences. It’s kind of a path that I’ve taken with photography. I guess that’s why I’m preaching it. I began photography as a side project. A girl broke up with me and I was working as a mining engineer in the middle of a desert and I figured if I didn’t find something to do and keep myself busy I’d go absolutely nuts. So, I decided that it would be cool to take pictures of the stars. It was something simple. It just began out of nowhere and then I figured as time went on it began a companion and something grew on me and I began to like more and more and then with time, I started organizing shoots. It’s cool to meet people, connect with people, to go to meetups and to have something to do so I could show up in a completely random place and still have something to do and not be the odd guy out because I’ve always been a little bit awkward socially. So this photography became my conversation of excuse. It became something I could show people. It became something I can show people, it became something I could connect with people with. And then that lead to eventually I got a little bit better and eventually I ended up replacing somebody for an event that they couldn’t cover and I was paid $250 to shoot all night long and I had free drinks and I was like “Wohoo”, this is awesome! I’m getting paid to have a good time”. And so, I was like “man, there’s a business in this?” So, I decided I wanted to become an event photographer. And so I just started investing all my time and effort into going out shooting every single even I can get hold on, meeting people and connecting with them, networking with them and that just grew. It grew and grew and grew and eventually grew so big that I ended up having two jobs. Ended up having the job at photography and the job of engineering and I was like “I don’t need two jobs. I don’t need two jobs. I didn’t start off photography for it to be a job in the first place”. So, it required a little bit of introspection there and time to step back and be like “wait a minute, is this really what I want to do with my career?” I mean, the money is great. I’m earning a lot of money so I can buy more toys and all that fun but it isn’t what I set out to do in the first place. So, at that point I decided that I didn’t need the money and I wasn’t having any much fun than I thought I was so, I just dropped everything and started doing creative projects. And so, I started figuring out what I want. I didn’t know. You don’t go into photography to earn money. Nobody really goes into photography to get rich. I don’t think you do a typical case study because you enjoy it. I just kind of needed to figure out what that thing was so I bought myself a whole set of Alienbees with Vagabonds and I just started going out and I launched it to a 365 project to basically take a portrait a day of post a portrait a day of something cool, something exciting, something unique and that forced me to just try out sorts of things because every day I had to post something on the internet regardless if I felt inspired, exhausted, whether or not I had actually any images to post I just have to come up with something and I kept that up for a hundred days and that was an amazing experience because it brought me to the conclusion that I wanted more time so I could create more elaborate things, so I could focus on creating larger, more complex imagery and that was through just forcing myself to try something new. From that point, my images did get more complex. I stopped my 365, I started gathering larger group, larger crowd seeing up to which point I could make things more technically challenging and along the way as I was sharing these stuff I wanted to get seen more, I wanted to get shared more but I just couldn’t figure out how and the girl I was dating at the time really wanted to film me. She wanted to film videos of me shooting. She thought that what I was in was really weird and interesting and I was like “no one wants to watch this stuff. Who cares about the guy behind the camera? It’s gonna be boring” but lo and behold I was in the time where all of the behind the scenes guys was just getting started. Chase Darvis, Fstoppers with some beginning of the stoppers and behind the scene videos was really a thing. And so, it turned out that it completely changed the way I would spread my imagery or share it with the world and then I came to the conclusion that if I was gonna be creating work, it couldn’t just be to do something pretty but had to be something that was gonna get visibility and for a same photo shoot that I did, same quality of images, the ones that had a video were getting scene ten times more than the ones that didn’t have a video. I was like “ok, every time I do a photo shoot now, I need a behind the scene video”. And then from that point, Florida has a video and then it became a blog. Every time I shoot I need a video, I need a blog. it just grown. Every time I do a photo shoot I need to invest. I need to make it more complete. I kind of deliver a complete experience. There’s a marketing strategy every time I shoot, every single time I post something. What is the message? What am I trying to do? What in this shoot is unique? Who’s going to read it and how is it going to challenge me and how is it going to be something that’s really exciting to put into my portfolio? So, a lot of different levels to it. And I think that by constantly investing in yourself and by constantly trying to make what you do into a better product, into a better experience. Along the way it’s inevitable that people start getting interested by the work that you do because suddenly this work which now has suddenly slowly gone from just being creative to being focused and creative can now reach a market. It can reach a market place. It can now start spreading with the internet and this whole great, great equalizer where anyone can discover what you do. So, out of a sudden, I now have a, I suppose a product where people will look through my portfolio and although the themes are completely different, although it doesn’t fit in any genre, fashion nor is it editorial, nor is it necessarily a commercial because it’s quiet fantastical but there’s still a very unique emotion and experience that goes into it because you’re experiencing a whole different world of imagery that you think are photo shopped but actually are not. So that’s kind of being the brand that’s solely developed and it’s never set out to be a branded individual who can create unique imagery with a social presence and a unique flare for fire and water. It wasn’t something I sat down and decided but something I decided through time and the only way to discover these things is to just keep trying. Figure out what you’re good at, figure at what you’re bad at and just keep growing.

Brent: Awesome… I think this is a creative little interview because I haven’t been able to ask any question. You actually answered all the questions I had in that talk.

Benjamin: Sorry…

Morphing Into Your Brand through Challenges

Brent: No, that’s great! I’m loving it, I’m loving it! So, wow! That’s an amazing story. So you’ve gone from an engineer to a photographer. There’s things that you don’t even make money, you know doing your one hundred day out of the three hundred sixty day project and figuring out what it is that you enjoy doing or creative vision then kind of morphing into the, I like the way you said that, “fantastical genre” and then branding yourself as you, the creative person which is a really unique way for photography to go. I don’t know of any other photographers who have done that. For me, I kind of found my area of expertise because that’s what my market wanted. The market actually dictates or send me to that place that I was making really good money and I could consistently make it for my family which was taking family portraits on the beach but I tried everything like you too. Models and underwater photography and all sorts of things but looks like you’ve taken the opposite route. You’ve taken the route where you’ve gone where your creative energy or your creativity or your vision is taking you and the market has come along with you. I mean maybe you’ve even created a market that wasn’t there before. That’s a really unique way of seeing it as a business person. Now, the root you’ve taken with creativity, creating a product or a brand with you, how did that changed your life when it comes to business and work that’s actually coming your way right now?

Benjamin: How has it changed my life… Well, I don’t have a 9-5 job anymore, I travel six months out of the year the first year I quit my job, I travelled 9 months out of the year the second year I quit my job. I’m not home, I’m meeting new people all the time, I never know where I’m gonna be. It’s impossible to make a plan, I never know when work is gonna come nor do I know when I’m gonna be inspired and meet someone to create something with. I have existential crisis every couple of months to figure out where I wanna go, whether or not it’s the right direction but I don’t think it’s necessarily any different with other creative experience. It’s just that I look at it in a larger macro scale. In terms of finding work, it’s funny because I never worried too much about money. I’ve always been frugal, I’ve always been cheap, I don’t spend excessively. When I travel, I do something I call “fan surfing”. I just post online and say “hey guys, I’m in town, I need a place to crash. Does anyone have a sofa for me?” and I get around. For me to be like that in my earlier days, when I travel I always have a workshop somewhere so I would have a flight’s covered and earn some money that would pay my expenses. So, essentially I travelled for free and at that time I was in somewhere unique and new, I would take a photo shoot out of it. That allowed me to grow an international portfolio, allowed me to connect with fans, allowed me to interact with people. It’s just overall a really fun time. Things start to get a bit challenging when you want change. It’s very easy, and I think this is the same for everyone, it’s very easy to say “you ride the wave”. Ride the wave of success. I was doing really good teaching. That was my basic motto. I was teaching, I was travelling and I was shooting a little bit here and there but I was teaching and travelling, teaching and travelling. So, I was just constantly on the road, I was earning money, it was great, it was growing and then I think after one year of teaching I realized that I was teaching the same thing I was a year ago. I had the same stories and I realized I wasn’t growing as an artist anymore and that was something that really bothered me because I didn’t want to just get stuck and not evolve and not change. I wanted to keep growing and keep challenging myself and see what could I have possibly achieved. How far could it go and how crazy it could get. What is on top of that pyramid and where will that lead me? I’m curious because I really know what will happen if just keep going to trade shows and I keep doing that. So, this year, this is going to be my second workshop at Fiji of the year. Last year I did like eight, or ten or twelve? I don’t know… I don’t remember.Fifteen? Twenty? I did tons. So, the conclusion is you can’t… I think it’s always important to question your direction as a creative. Is this where you’re trying to get to? It’s not just about what you’re doing now. You don’t always have the luxury of switching career paths at any point and time of your choosing but I think it is always important to make sure that you’re walking in the right direction. When you realized that it’s not… It’s changed, because that happens all the time. Then you just start walking the other way or else you’re gonna get really in transient. I don’t know if this comes with age or what not. I mean, I’ve personally felt it. It gets harder to change. You get a little bit more apprehensive over it. You start wondering if everything is going to be worth it and so there’s always going to be those questions but I think that knowing that you’re walking in the right direction is something that you have to constantly ask yourself or else you risk turning around one day wondering how all the years went by and why nothing’s changed, why you’re still in the same place.

It’s easier to be happy if you’re less demanding of yourself

Brent: Yeah, those were great, great points. You know, things fail. Like doing the same things over and over and over? Is that kind of what you’re talking about? Not having that creative energy flowing. So basically it ends up being a job really and you’re taking pictures for somebody else just as a job and you’re not actually inspired anymore.

Benjamin: Yeah. Well, that’s. I think it’s kind of it. I mean, you can be very comfortable without… It’s probably easier to be happy if you’re less demanding of yourself. To simply run a successful business and to sustain it as supposed to constantly innovating and challenging, it’s pretty exhausting of an experience but it all depends on what you want to achieve in life right? I mean, everybody is driven by different things and I’m personally driven by the quest for constant improvement and growth and not just myself but my work and so, I think that is what has enabled me to have so many unique projects and you look through the journey that I have achieved. It’s been a really, really funny one. It goes in all directions but when you go backwards from where I am today and wonder how I would’ve achieved what I have it kind of becomes more obvious that along the way despite all the hopping around and wrong directions and everything, it’s been a constant progression anyways because I think you learn very quickly what you don’t want to do in your life if you try but it’s a lot harder to say what you want without same experimentation cause you can’t want what you haven’t experienced.

Brent: Exactly.

Figuring Out What it is that you want to do

Benjamin: So, I think it’s very important to experiment constantly and challenge yourself and it also helps you even as a business person to stay creative and stay on top of the competition and to force yourself to look at the way the industry is shifting and changing because… I don’t know… You must have experienced this. DVDs, once in our life were a lot more lucrative than they are now and the format of those DVDs so even if you said you changed the mediums to digital downloads, it is a lot more lucrative to have shorter pieces than more complete, longer, complicated pieces.

Brent: Definitely! And that’s just the CD audience keeping up with the trends. We’re not talking about the portrait business. You know, you have the selling CDs, DVDs and low resolution images to clients and it’s a different way. Like, I’ve gone from selling prints and selling images to clients into actually selling information and training. You kind of morph. I love change. For me, I get a little nervous when things are going the same and too predictable for me. I think it’s the creative side. I think I’ve come from some of that background as you’ve been. I’ve come from an engineering background where everything was black and white and either worked or it didn’t and there wasn’t much creativity involved and I’ve gone a thirty, kind of half and half where the technical expertise when it comes to the lighting and the cameras and depth and fell and all that stuff and posing and then I’ve got the creative side too which is… ok, what are we gonna do? The vision for all of these people looking at you saying “hey what do we do next?” If you got in that creativity, it’s tough but but I kind of like the mix that photography gives us creative technical people. It’s a mix of technical and creativity. Hey, I wanted to get into the action points for anyone who’s listening into this podcast. Let’s just say their running a photography business and then they are feeling a bit burnt out or a bit old in what they are doing and wanted to invest in themselves. They want to create a personal project to get creativity juices flowing again. What are the steps that you would say so much to do? Obviously, you’ve been on steroids in the creative side. You take everything to the next level when it comes to the creativity. If someone wants to do it on a smallest stand, what are the things that they should do now to get those creativity juices flowing and get interested again in photography?

Benjamin: I think that you need to figure out what is first, what is it you want to do. If you don’t know what it is you want to do then just do it by elimination. Just start with the things you don’t want to do cross them out.

Brent: Ok.

Benjamin: Figure out what’s left then go that direction and then from that point, you figure out
what you know how to do, you’ve done before and you try out one of it. Not by a lot. But I’m saying, you know how to shoot portrait and you’re comfortable with it but you’ve never worked with a makeup artist. Go get a makeup artist and try something. Doesn’t matter what it is. Let’s say you’re comfortable with makeup artist, you bring in a fashion stylist or designer and if you’ve already done that, natural light or artificial light. Just do everything you know to do and push it one step further. It doesn’t matter what it is. If you’ve already done everything, you’ve already done complicated but you’re really a studio shooter, try shoot environmental. Try to put something bigger together. What if you tried three models instead of two? You have ten models instead of one? Use fifty models instead of ten and figure out how you’re going to make it work. Don’t aim too high. Don’t start it off going I have a dream or a vision. I want to suspend people from a hot air balloon flying over the country. Don’t set yourself up for failure. Set yourself up for success and ideally don’t just plan one project. Plan three, four, five, six of them at the same time because what’s good about planning multiple projects is if one falls through then you still have five more to go. So it’s not that big of a deal when something falls through. But if you invest all your time and energy to create one project and it doesn’t happen, you’re just gonna end up being demoralized and not wanting to do anything so, I don’t know if that was in the right format

Brent: Yeah, totally. So, the action steps here guys are find out what it is that you want to do, push your boundaries. Get outside your comfort zone and go one step or ten steps more than you’ve ever done before and that will get the creative juices flowing because you’ve gotta involve more things, more people and talent and that just has a knock out effect because once you’re actually dealing with other creators all in one place, it’s gonna attract more creative people into your life and then you can tell the story of when you did that underwater shoot in Bali and how you got the other creatives to join you.

How to get people to help you for free

Benjamin: Yeah, so, one good question I receive fairly often from people is how do you get people to help you out for free? I struggle, no one wants to help me, my friends always bail on my last minute or I can’t even get a makeup artist to come after they have agreed to come and I think a lot of that is in communication. It’s how do you communicate with people? How talk to them in the first place? The easiest way to look at it and I think it’s kind of same with business and negotiation is that, you don’t want to go into the project talking about you and yourself. You don’t wanna talk about how this is going to be awesome for your Portfolio, you don’t want to talk about how this is going to be amazing because you had this vision for years. You want to ignore all those part. You wanna talk to somebody and tell them what they’re get out of the photoshoot. You want to tell them why this is a unique opportunity for them. Why this is a once in a lifetime chance to do something unique. Why this is something that their portfolio needs. Why they should get excited about this project and essentially you get people engaged. You get people to interact with what you’re trying to create and through that process, the chances of someone not wanting to come is very very slim. What I announce on the internet, usually on Facebook or what not that I have shoot coming up and I’m looking for assistance. You don’t need to mention anything close to money or anything for compensation because I have fans that are lining up to come and assist. But the reason they’re lining up to come and assist is because I’ve already proven that it’s going to be an interesting experience. How? Through my behind the scene videos, photos, through my stories, through the stories that I share and so I’ve essentially created my own market of individuals who want to come and help me. When I show my portfolio to people, I usually assume that they don’t know who I am. If I want to work with someone with whom I view of greater or equal talent, I approach them and say as just another guy, I try to come up with the elevator pitch. I do something along the lines of “I’m an international surreal photographer who lights them on fire, sticks them under water and shipwrecks and dangles them on the edge of skyscrapers and I would love to work with you. I think that I can bring something extremely unique into your portfolio and together I believe that I can capture your work that has never been done before because of my experience. I also have an addition of following XYZ and not only will I be doing photo, I will also capture behind the scene video that I think will help both f us together”. And so, you make it sound like something so enticing that people would feel dumb to say no because they’re getting so much out of it and it’s free. They don’t even have to pay for this. It’s amazing! The last time they had to pay for a footage it turned out to be a disaster. Someone else is going to take care of the organizing. All I have to do is show up that day, this guy obviously have a track record. That’s what you want people to feel when they get that email from you. You need to sell yourself and you need to make it sound like something really good so, I guess all this to say don’t be selfish. Be humble and explain to people what they have to gain from working with you I the first place and that will help you in a lot of situation. Maybe getting an upgrade when flying, when getting good customer service. You know, just being polite and friendly and telling to people why they should like you.

Brent: And basically doing unto others what you want them to do to you. You know, just being nice. And I love that element of speech. I’ve never heard anything like that before. It’s crazy.

Benjamin: Yeah, uhm… Straight off the bat, it has to attract your attention. It has to be something they’ve never heard of before ideally and once again it comes down to that same question. If you have built a brand for yourself, what is that brand and why are you unique?

Journey towards fulfillment

Brent: So, how long has it taken you to get from you know, you were getting paid to do a shoot. Some event photography to people were starting to contact you to come and shoot for them? The span or the time frame that it took you when you’re doing your personal projects to actually getting noticed and getting reputation, brand or branding which is your creativity and you taking things to the next level. How long did that take you?

Benjamin: I bought my first point and shoot in 2007, I got my first paid job I think in August 2008 and I quit my job in 2012 so no we’re 2015. You know, you can say that I’m big or I’m recognized. I personally feel like I still have a long way to go. Outside of the very limited photography community, nobody knows who the hell I am and that’s fine. I’m growing, still working. Actually, one of the things that I’m looking and figuring out is how do you branch out from only the photography circles? How do you grow beyond that? I think it’s a very interesting question to have. So, that’s just me though, I mean, I don’t… the only time people recognize me is when I’m in a trade show. I’ve been recognized on the street before but I still don’t consider myself a celebrity. I have a hundred thousand friends on Facebook and that sounds great when you compare yourself to the average Joe but to compare yourself to any influential, music, band, artist, there’s a ton of people out there way bigger than you that can do way more amazing things that you’ll never be capable of and that’s how I see myself. I think that there’s oodles of things to be had. I don’t have work cornering me into the door, I have more than enough. I actually like not having to much work because it gives me the time to get creative with things and growing and experimenting but you know, some people come up to me and say “Dude, what’s it like now that you’ve made it?” and I go, “ I’m still struggling, I’m still working, I’m still trying to one up myself and grow and figure out what’s the next step”. I don’t know how to answer that question.

Giving Back to Society

Brent: Exactly! Awesome! Well, Ben you’ve been great on the show. Let’s just run through what we’re talking about. So, the show is all about investing in yourself as a creative person so that you don’t get stale and stop enjoying photography and it’s also a way to attract new work into your business. You’ve told us your story, what you’ve done to get to that point, how does that inspired you in your direction and I think one of the big action points that I’ve got from this podcast is the behind the scenes video. So, when you’re actually on a shoot specially on a project that you are getting paid for you’ve got to reach out to other creative people. Hopefully you’ve attracted them to work for free. Give them a really good elevator speech that you came up with. Excited him about why it’s really good to do this project because it’s gonna benefit them. Basically what’s in it for them and you’ve engaged with them so they’re gonna do the shoot so it’s a really good idea to get a behind the scenes video guy to come and shoot the whole project. Create a creative video out of it then create a creative blog out of it then put it up unto the social media because that will really pour gasoline into the fire to really maximize the exposure that you get from this creative project which will end up getting you more work in the long term. What’s in the future for you, Ben? What’s the next big thing for you?

Benjamin: One thing that I’ve been wanting to develop and I feel like my work is needing is purpose and meaning. My work is really cool. It’s really pretty that people are really excited but it doesn’t help the world. It doesn’t change lives. It doesn’t create change and I would like to do something meaningful for humanity, for society, for others around. I would like to essentially change the world in whatever capacity I can. In a sense, I have through videos by inspiring other photographers to make them dream that maybe photography isn’t just about being in a studio as an assistant for ten years before slowly building up your career then getting a commercial job or whatever. But I would personally like to experiment more with work that has impact and has purpose and has meaning. A very tangible meaning to people and it’s something that I’ve been troubling a little bit with this year. To create jobs that not only relates to people but can also wow them and it’s kinda funny because in one sense, when you connect the people you want to be as ordinary as you can be but when you want to impress them it has to be fantastic. Connecting the two in a single image or single story is I believe partly experiences or something that I’m having trouble with but something that I hopefully if we do another podcast like this In a year I’ll be able to look back at it and say “Yeap that’s exactly what I was trying to do. I did not know how to say it”.

Brent: Yeah, and look… I mean, we should keep talking because I’ve got a couple of projects that I’ve been involved with that’s down that alley. It’s giving back to people. It’s helping people with creative skills. We’ll take a little bit more about that offline. But, thanks so much Ben for being on the show and sharing your story and all great things that other photographers or other business photographers can do to actually make the business more successful. Maybe, even more importantly, stay creative and actually enjoy photography and just think of it as a business because sometimes you can get so focused on the business side that you forget to enjoy it and then you get burnt out and you don’t want to do it anymore which isn’t a good thing. So thanks so much for being on the show. If people want to find out about you and what you’re doing and where you are, how do they do that?

Benjamin: Well, they can definitely just Google Von Wong and follow me on whichever medium you want. My website, I have a Youtube, I have Facebook, I have Instagram, I have 500px, I have pretty much everything. The most active place you’ll find me is on Facebook. I started doing live streams which has been fun.

Brent: Awesome! Alright, well, we’ll put all those links into the show notes, guys and it will all be in there. Well, thanks so much for being on the show and hopefully, well, I know we will but we’ll catch up pretty soon in Fiji for the workshop.

Benjamin: Alright, sounds great! See you soon.

Brent: Awesome, thanks!

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